2408 CAKE vs. PIE vs. KUCHEN vs. TARTE

[MiraAhmedovic]

@FredericBlum pointed out that we should discuss the difference between 2408 CAKE, PIE and KUCHEN. I'll also throw TARTE in the mix.
Here's my take on it, I'd love to discuss so we can untangle this and decide if any new concepts are necesarry and, if yes, which ones:

• I'd say pie and cake are two distinct concepts since cake is usually sweet whereas pie can totally be savory.
  German seems to allow a stretch when it comes to Kuchen (I'd usually associate the term with a sweet baked good) in cases like "Zwiebelkuchen" or "Flammkuchen" but since those are further specified, I'd say cake = Kuchen in the general sense whereas pie is more like an Auflauf (?).

• As for tarte, is it just a shallow pie?
  I was struggling whether to map Spanish "tarta" (DiezAlamo-2018-750-517) to CAKE, a new concept PIE or yet another new concept, TARTE. The semantic category for this item was also given as "Dinero (a kind of money)" which I could not link to cake/pie/tarte in my research at all.
  The same goes for French "tarte" Monnier-2014-1031-933 and Cantonese "蛋撻" Zhong-2024-1286-342 (egg tartelettes, look much like Portuguese Pasteis de Nata. Does this make them little handpies?).

[AnnikaTjuka]

I enjoy discussing food, but I don't see a simple solution to make these distinctions. Most glosses don't necessarily indicate, for example, whether the pie is savoury or sweet, and there are also some culture-specific concepts, such as "moon cake" in Southeast Asian languages. @FredericBlum Do you have a specific suggestion for how you would map/remap these baked goods or establish a new concept for them?

[FredericBlum]

Not really, and I have discussed this a lot at the personal level as well. One thought I had was to go feature-based, e.g. SAVORY PASTRY' and SWEET PASTRY'. But that wouldnt even capture german Torte vs Kuchen.

These might just result, as you kind of already suggest, @AnnikaTjuka , very culture-specific. The question then is whether it makes sense to map them at all, or if we should rather leave them out entirely.

[AnnikaTjuka]

We only have a few "pie" glosses and they are unmapped. There are a few non-English glosses that are mapped to CAKE. I don't think it would make sense to unmap all of them, but if you have suggestions for specific unmappings, I'm all ears.

[MiraAhmedovic]

For the instances that are already mapped to CAKE, I'm unsure about the two Chinese entries to CAKE. BeijingDaxue-1964-905-195 seems more like a rice cake/dessert in general while Zhong-2022-664-120 looks more like the western understanding of a cake/Torte would. But I don't think they should necessarily be unmapped on these grounds.